The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated as soon as possible.

Taya Graham:

Can our democracy survive the influence of billions of dollars being poured into our politics? Well, that’s why I’m here at the Netroots Nation in Philadelphia in order to speak with Representative Summer Lee about the push to abolish Super PACS, the push to overturn Citizens United and whether or not we can look forward to some serious interference in our midterm elections. Congressman Lee, last time I saw you, you were talking about the Abolish Super PACS Act, which you co-sponsored with Senator Sanders. First, can you just give me just a quick rundown on how that works?

Rep. Summer Lee:

Yeah, so think about it this way. If you are a regular person, me, you, the people we know, you have a contribution limit on what you can give to somebody who’s running for federal office. If you are a millionaire or a corporation, yeah, you have that if you give directly to the candidate, but you can just get around it by giving to what we call these super PACs. So these super PACs are PACs that are not necessarily directly connected to a candidate. They legally can’t confer, but there are workarounds and with those PACs, you can give unlimited. You can give any amount that you want, which is why we’ve seen this rise in multi, multi, multimillion dollar campaigns because they’ve been able to just flood money and sometimes you’ll see a pack that’s one person alone. Other times you’ll see a pack that might be a hundred donors, 10 donors who are able to give millions each.

And that’s how they just get around and they’re flooding our districts. And that’s why every cycle we have records breaking for the most expensive primary in history. And if we abolish it, which is what our bill would do, it would say that there is the same cap on a super PAC as there is on a pack that is directly connected to a candidate or a labor union or anything else. So it would essentially get rid of it.

Taya Graham:

So I do have a question though. There are Democrats that receive money from Super PACs. There are Republicans that receive money of Super PACs. So are you receiving undivided support on the behalf of your fellow Democrats for this?

Rep. Summer Lee:

Of course not, but right now this is the most important moment to talk about it because as a lot of us could predict, if we don’t do something about money in politics, and I think sometimes it’s like, “Oh, well, we don’t want to unilaterally disarm because Republicans will use it or Democrats will use it. ” Well, in primaries, that’s not even the right argument, but we are accustomed to our favorite Super PAC coming in and keeping the type of candidates that we don’t want into office. But that’s a deal with the devil. It’s a deal with the devil because it will always come back to bite us. Right now we’re looking at a rapid erosion of our democracy from every single angle. So from the expenses that it costs to even run, because can working class people run for Congress if it costs $20 million?

Can you run for Senate if it costs $200 million? You absolutely cannot. Then the cost, the clay with the voting rights being gutted now in the South, they’re automatically redistricting. That is a democracy reform issue to the way in which the Supreme Court is moving, to the decisions, the policies that don’t pass, that don’t move. All of those things are rooted with some money in politics keeping us from things, keeping us farther away from the majoritarian view, pushing unpopular positions and all of those things are pushing our democracy further and further and further away from safety.

Taya Graham:

Now, when you talk about this incredible influx of money into our politics, which essentially erases the voice of your average citizen who might be able to donate $20 but certainly can’t afford to run, would you disagree with the statement that we’re living in an oligarchy?

Rep. Summer Lee:

Yes. No, I would not disagree with that. I mean, no, it’s true. We all remember the picture from Trump’s inauguration, his indoor inauguration, which was even more significant, right? Because it’s always cold in January. So he didn’t have his inauguration outside where the people could access tickets and they can come. He had it in I think the rotunda in the Capitol, so limited people. In the front row there you saw all of the tech billionaires, you saw what Bezos and Musk and Zuckerberg and all of these people who have invested a lot and investment wasn’t for them to have a front row. It wasn’t for them to have a front row seat in a swearing in. That was not the reason they were investing. They were investing so that they can get the regulations or deregulations that they want so that they can get the access, that they can have the conflict of interests that they maintain so that they can get safety from prosecution when they’ve done things that they’re not supposed to do.

We’ve seen the DOJ use to help Donald Trump’s political allies to harm Donald Trump’s political enemies. That’s what an oligarchy is. And oligarchy is a government by the few, by the very, very wealthy. And there’s not an argument that our government right now is run by corporations, by corporate owners, and by billionaires.

Taya Graham:

There are a lot of folks who are really concerned that the midterm elections are going to be rigged, are going to be stolen in some way, that there’s going to be interference from the Trump administration. What concerns you about the possible threats to having a free and fair election in the upcoming midterm?

Rep. Summer Lee:

I’m concerned about what has already happened. I think that sometimes we don’t react until that thing, until we don’t have a free and fair election, but that we’re already impaired. We’re already in peril. The gutting of the voting rights that is catastrophic and it isn’t just catastrophic for the South. It’s not just catastrophic for black representation or marginalized minoritized representation. It’s catastrophic for a democracy wherever you exist within it. It is a blow to the institution itself. And now because of that, now because people believe that, well, that’s the south’s problem or that’s black folk’s problem, they’re not recognizing the ways in which all of the hopes and dreams they have for our society are now tied up to the fate of black people being able to push through illegal gerrymanders, right? So that’s already happening.

We’re in America and we have seen the results of elections overturned so that they can then go and redistrict. We have seen elections cancel so that they can go and redistrict. We’ve seen extreme Supreme Court decisions that make it harder and harder for everyday people to actually have a say in this democrats. Those concerns are already justified. So right now I believe whatever it is that Trump is indicating that the Republicans around them are indicated, I believe them and we have to start moving like we believe them too because they have executed a plan and it has been meticulous. So if we are worried about now the last safeguard of our elections that you can go and vote, then we’re already too late because guess what? There’s already been laws passed in states that you can’t pass out water or food when people are waiting in line, right?

They’re already making it less free, less fair. So that’s already a reality. So I think that question is a little question is already too late.

Taya Graham:

You mentioned something that I’ve been thinking about quite a bit, which is the erasure of black voices and black voters. Do you know anything that the Democratic Party is working on right now to try to help black voters stay enfranchised and protect their rights?

Rep. Summer Lee:

So the reality is that the Democratic Party already has those plans. They already exist in the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Act. They already exist in my Ballas Super PACS Act. They already exist in our N Citizens United Constitutional Amendment. These solutions, these proposals already exist. The trifecta that exists around us is real. Right now we need people. We need people to say that we will no longer purge buy into a system that’s oppressing us. And that’s a hard question, right? Because what can we do? And it’s not to say that we can do nothing. That’s never what I’m saying, but it is to say that in between elections that people have power and responsibility too. So if we are upset with the actions of Texas or Louisiana or Virginia, then we need to start to move as if they are accountable to us in and out of election cycles and the corporations behind, because if you have an oligarchy, then who do you target?

You target the pockets of the people who are running your government. So I think that we’re all going to have to start to collectively think about what we’re willing to do to protect our democracy right now in lieu of a president who will sign a bill that will do the exact opposite of what he’s trying to do. I think about how do we now help invest in our organizing on the ground with our labor unions, organizing on the ground within our communities to get people educated, to help them know their rights, to help them get to polls. How are we investing in making sure that our voter protection folks are able to work and to function, that they exist in the places that need them most? How are we making sure that people who are organizing around voter turnout with vote by mail ballots, that they’re helping people to get their ballots in an illegal way, in a safe way so that they can’t be overturned.

We’re going to have to be crafty. We have to do all of these things at once. And if we’re able to earn a majority, we are going to have to push through real reform irrespective of the filibuster. And if the filibuster’s in our way, then that’s going to have to move too.

Taya Graham:

There was just $70 billion set aside to be allocated to ICE and CBP, even though they just had a record breaking $140 billion added to their budget last year. There are some genuine concerns that the reason why that $70 billion was allocated was to ensure that ICE could be used to intimidate at the polls. Do you think that’s a valid concern?

Rep. Summer Lee:

Of course, they’re intimidating now. The deployment of ICE into American cities is an intimidation tactic. And it went quite beyond intimidation. We’ve seen the murder of Americans. We’ve seen the murder of people in our communities. No, that’s a really valid concern, but also it’s recognizing pattern. It’s pattern recognition. So we know that they’re desperate. Republicans are desperate right now. They don’t believe that they can win in free and fear elections. They don’t believe that they can win when we have even playing field, which is why they are trying to uneven the playing field, right? We have to recognize that too. That means that they know they’re working with unpopular opinions. They know that they’re working against the majoritarian view. So we also have to be ready to counteract that, right? Voting, it is your legal right to vote. You are a citizen and you are registered to vote.

It is your legal right to vote and you should do it proudly with your head head or high. You do not have to get out of the line if you are in line by the time that your poll closed. We joke about it now. It’s like, if you’re in line, stay in line. Stay in line. If you are in a state where someone can’t bring you water or you can’t bring food, then let’s help make people lunches beforehand so that when they’re already in line and it’s hot in Atlanta, then let’s make sure that we already have water before they get to those lines because we know what their tactics are and we can operate around them. So yeah, we’re going to have to start moving like that a little bit too and that’s all right. But let’s make sure that our community shows up to the polls too to protect those people who are most afraid to show up.

Taya Graham:

Now I might be paraphrasing you, but you said something to the effect of that poverty is a policy choice. And in the richest country in the world, why do you think there are so many lawmakers who’ve accepted mass homelessness, housing insecurity, our outrageously expensive healthcare system? Why has that been accepted as normal?

Rep. Summer Lee:

Because a lot of them hate poor people. And honestly, we have to start with that honest reality that there are people who hate poor people and they hate the people who are more likely to be poor because of systemic policy choices. So it ends up being cyclical. If you come from a lineage of believing that black people are lesser than or believing that immigrants are lesser than and then you then get into a policy position, you’re not going to go out of your way to help those populations succeed. You’re not going to go out of your way to make sure that they’re protected when America as a whole is going through the hardest times like we’ve seen through the financial crises, the housing crisis, the COVID crisis, right? And poor people is harder for poor people to get to office, right?That very simple barrier explains a whole bunch.

How many members of Congress have ever lived in poverty? We talk about this a lot. Remember when they were all doing the Snap Challenge and they were like, “I’m going to live today on $7 and then I’m going to go back to what I was doing.” The fact that they even had to do that simulation shows you how disconnected they are from people, from real people. How many times do members of Congress actually live amongst people who are struggling or how many times do they actually recognize the ways in which people are struggling? Because sometimes we think that struggle has to look a particular way and then we demonize people not knowing the struggle that they’re going through and then that person gets pushed farther and far further outside of our electoral system that’s by design. So I think that until we are able to have a truly reflective democracy until poor people are able to be represented in government at every single level, then we are not going to see a government that reflects the needs and the interests of poor people.

Right now we see the needs of corporations reflected. We see the needs and the perspectives of lawyers as a lawyer, but I came work class, but you’re going to see those needs reflected. Wherever you see disparities in representation, you see disparities also in resources and investments and you see gaps in policy. So yeah, you can’t serve people you hate.

Taya Graham:

I do have to point out there, there are progressives that spend time criticizing Republicans, but they also sometimes spend time criticizing Democrats. So I wanted to know what you thought the Democratic leadership has been a little too cautious about confronting, whether it’s poverty or healthcare or housing or corporate influence or even the war in Palestine. What do you think they’ve been a little bit too cautious about?

Rep. Summer Lee:

I mean, I don’t think that the handling of the genocide in Palestine, I don’t think that’s appropriately even characterized as cautious because that has not been a cautious approach. It has been a very aggressive approach. It has been a very neglectful approach from both sides. I mean, we can say, we could talk about Gaza, we can talk about corporations. There’s absolutely been a hesitancy. I often say that the Democratic Party has grown accustomed to trying to serve two masters. And I don’t mean this as individual as I mean this institutionally, that is an institution as the party is, that we have been able to get away for too long with serving two masters and we’re not recognizing that the moment is calling for us to pick one, that people, our constituents, our neighbors, they are tired of that. They perceive it, they see it. So back in the day when it was like normal that you went to dinner or lunch with the lobbyists and the corporations and the corporations donate to you and then they’re in your office and that was the way it was done and people accepted that.

People don’t have that anymore. People are not okay with that anymore. People are waking up all over the country of all political backgrounds and they are all saying that this government is not working for us. They’re all saying that our material conditions are not changing, right? So that is a big one. And I think that the real thing that I think leadership maybe, and I don’t mean house leadership, I mean just all Democrat, whether it be the DOC, the House, the state’s leadership in our party, they’re not addressing the tension between the people in our party who are maybe more established, most likely to be middle, upper class and the people who are more marginalized with our party. They’re not addressing the tension between progressives and moderates, right? They’re treating … We talk about the Big 10 all the time, but when a progressive actually tries to run for office, when a progressive young black woman is running against an incumbent, maybe the only way that she can ever get here because she can wait her turn forever and we know that the turn doesn’t come around for young Latinas or for young black women, doesn’t come along, doesn’t come along for queer and trans people, it don’t come along for us so that they’re now kind of closing those doors or those windows, shutting those windows that were open for them.

That is a real tension point. And I don’t think we’re always being honest with ourselves. I think that one of the bigger problems is that sometimes they think that by attacking us, the candidate or the elected official, that that’s all they’re attacking. But there are millions of people who see themselves in the type of politics that we conduct, that we choose. They see themselves in our decisions to speak out against a genocide. They see themselves in our policies around Medicare for all or attacks in the rich so that we can fund schools so that we can pay for the needs. They see themselves in that movement and when they attack us, they’re pushing them out and right now we need more people. We need more people. So I think that that is our primary tension. And once we started to talk about that, honestly, it will be uncomfortable, but it will be powerful.

And I think that that is the way that we will actually feed into a coalition that will defeat authoritarianism. It will defeat fascism, but we got to get through this moment.

Taya Graham:

You are on the House Oversight Committee in relation to Epstein. I believe I saw you at the last round table where Skye Roberts was there, Connor was there. This upcoming Monday, I believe it is … Oh, it’s Tuesday, excuse me. The upcoming Tuesday, Epstein’s assistant, Leslie Groff, is going to be testifying. What do you expect to learn and what do you hope is going to be the outcome of her testimony?

Rep. Summer Lee:

So I actually haven’t been briefed on it. We’ve seen a number of … I mean, obviously we’ve done, despite so many barriers, a lot of obstruction and honestly a very unwilling partner in Chair Comer and the other side, a lot of the folks on the other side. We’ve actually been able to move on a number of subpoenas as we’ve seen a lot of folks who have been coming in to speak to us about what they know and share and what they know. It’s been up and down. We’ve gotten some people who we suspect have lied to us. It’s illegal to lie to Congress, especially if you’re under oath. We’ve got others who know limited things and they are forthcoming with it, but every opportunity that we can take to talk to somebody who is connected to this is an important one and it’s so important for these survivors who are looking not just for justice, but they’re leading us kind of on a scavenger run to piece this together like they deserve to have happened.

So I’m always open when they come, when folks come to talk to us. We take every interview, whether it’s a deposition that is a real one or every interview or every hearing that they come to, we take them all very seriously because we are conducting a serious investigation and we want to know what stones have we not turned, what maybe has been not been publicized yet that you can share with us because our committee is … We are the committee of Georgia. So we’ll see. Literally, I take every one of these as a will see how it turns out.

Taya Graham:

I’m hoping that Leslie Groff is going to go in there because she essentially was like the air traffic controller over his life. She got visas for the girls. She arranged their transportation. She spoke to some of the young women on the phone. She saw some of them in person. So there’s a chance that she knows … She was the utter point person basically for everything that was going on in Epstein’s life. So there’s a lot of names she’s going to know. So is there a chance that if she gives some of these names, financial institution names, people who he was feeding these young girls to, who he was allowing to be a predator to, do you think that you’re going to be able to use that information to try to get some real accountability and to get some charges against these people who are co-conspirators and predators?

Rep. Summer Lee:

I mean, I think that that is the absolute, the end game. We’re not doing this for fun, but again, the reason why we need to hold this DOJ accountable right now is because this is their job. So if all of the information that we’re going to get is going to fall on death ears because the DOJ doesn’t want to prosecute people, then we need to make sure that we have a different DOJ as quickly as we can have a different DOJ, which is why all of these are important pieces. Being able to actually have the gavel so that when people come to speak to us, we can actually follow up. When they don’t come, we can hold them in contempt. Then moving to a presidency that we can actually appoint a serious attorney general that isn’t pushing off blame for everything is going to be the next step because if we are not willing to bring charges and there’s not going to be trials from this, then we’re not going to get justice.

There are more people, as we all know, than Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And if we are not going to say that they are going to be held accountable legally, then we are failing not just these survivors. We’re failing every single American who has come to learn that there should be accountability for the breaking of laws and when there are heinous crimes like this to allow anyone to get off. Again, I always say shaming is not justice, right? Just unveiling, revealing them is not justice. Justice is going to look like reparations for everybody who has been harmed and is going to look like true accountability legally, not whatever they’re doing to help Ghislaine Maxwell be more comfortable.