The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Marc Steiner:

Welcome to the Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. It’s great to have you all with us. As the insanity of this Trump-Hegseth War with Iran intensifies, we’re going to bring you a conversation today and hear an analysis of what we face from a man who knows our military, who fought in it, and that stands the danger of wars that have no meaning of than pulling us deeper into a quagmire that endangers our future. Roy Fanning did two tours in combat as an army ranger in Afghanistan. He wrote an amazing book entitled Worth Fighting For: An Army Rangers Journey Out of the Military and Across America, and co-author with Craig Hodges of the book, Long Shot: The Triumphs and Struggles of an NBA Freedom Fighter. And his journey was just that. He walked across the United States for the Pat Tillman Foundation to work against endless wars.

He speaks at high schools and colleges throughout the country about the hell of war, the danger of imperialism that drives us to those wars, and then he speaks profoundly about what drove him to become a peace activist, and he joins us now. So Rory Fanning, welcome. It’s good to have you with us, and I appreciate you taking the time.

Rory Fanning:

Thanks for having me, Marc.

Marc Steiner:

Let’s just begin in a broadest sense here. As someone who has been through two tours of combat and who thinks and writes about this and then backed off from the military, I’d like to get your analysis about what you see at the moment with Iran, because to me, it feels like we are on a precipice, a really dangerous one, but I’d like to hear your analysis of where you see this, where we are.

Rory Fanning:

Well, it feels like history’s repeating itself. I mean, I remember signing up after nine eleven, watching the planes hit the Twin Towers, and I wanted to do my part to prevent a nine eleven from ever happening again. And so I decided to sign up for the Special Forces, Second Army Ranger Battalion. And when I landed in country in Afghanistan, I was really expecting to being led by the CAA, being led by the intelligence agencies that run the US military. And my immediate impression upon landing Afghanistan is we had absolutely no idea what we’re doing here. We didn’t understand the culture. We didn’t speak the language. We knew very little about the terrain. And our job was just to go in there and stir things up, really. I didn’t know at the time that the Taliban had surrendered when I landed in country, and our job was essentially to bring them back into the fight.

And it feels like history is repeating itself in Iran. I don’t think the US has thought this through clearly evidenced by the simple fact that we don’t even have escape plans for civilians in these countries that are now being attacked by Iran. So

It’s business as usual, really. And that happens often when the people who are ordering soldiers to fight are not directly affected or impacted by the violence and all the problems that comes by it, meaning they’re not sending their own kids to fight and die. And I think if they did fight, send their own kids to fight and die, they may be a little bit more thoughtful in these operations.

Marc Steiner:

And just to pick up on your experience in combat as a soldier in the United States Army and someone who’s written about it and really thought through it all, Iran is a very different place. It’s not Vietnam, it’s not Iraq. It’s a huge, huge country with a lot of complexity to it. And it feels as if some ways Trump and his cronies have no idea what they’re stumbling into with this war. I’d just like to hear what your thoughts on that.

Rory Fanning:

Agreed. I think the terrain is very similar to Afghanistan in the sense that they called Afghanistan the place where empires go to die, and Iran is very similar in that terrain. You put boots on the ground in Iran and we’re in for a lot of pain. I think Iran is a place that is equipped to respond to the US. It could potentially draw in its partners like Russia and China. And this seemed like a very impulsive decision because of the whims of impulsive leaders, both here in the United States and Israel.

Marc Steiner:

I mean, I think that one of the things here, especially in terms of people who have been through wars before, to really educate the public about, is that we’re facing a war here in a country that has 80 million people. It’s huge and its tentacles go way beyond Iran. They touch a lot of the Islamic resistance across the globe. And I think people don’t really realize what Trump and the right wing have stumbled into here, have brought us along and the real danger this poses for the future.

Rory Fanning:

Yes. I mean, I think Trump has clearly underestimated the situation. I think Netanyahu is probably … I think Netanyahu just wants chaos. I think there’s probably a number of reasons Trump is going along with this. He does seem like he’s being pulled by the nose here. But yeah, I mean, 80 million people. And yes, I mean, there are absolutely people who are happy, both inside and outside of Iran that the Supreme Leader Homini is dead, but there are also people that bought into his program and have an allegiance towards the revolution essentially that overthrew the Shah of Iran. I mean, there is buy-in in Iran amongst a lot of people. And people also like the idea of self-determination. They don’t like these Western powers coming in and deciding what’s going to happen to their country’s oil or what’s going to happen to their own destiny.

And if Khamenei had to go, the people of Iran needed to do it because overthrowing a regime like this, the way the US is done, and you can look at Iraq, you can look at Libya, you can look at countless examples, never ends well. And I think most people in Iran know that.

Marc Steiner:

Other examples you gave show the effects of this kind of intervention by the United States that ends up leading nations in chaos.

Rory Fanning:

Yep. Yep. And you ask the leadership, well, what’s next? I think Marco Rubio just said, “That’s not up to the US.” They just executed the leader of Iran and say they have no responsibility for what comes next. I mean, if that isn’t pathetic and horrific, I don’t know what is.

Marc Steiner:

What’s your thought about Pete Hexas rebranding his cabinet position as the head of the Department of War?

Rory Fanning:

Yeah, it actually reminds me of they used to call Veterans Day our mistakes day, and this was the day to celebrate peace.

Marc Steiner:

Great. The end of war. Day

Rory Fanning:

Was the end of war, because people in World War I understood how horrible and depraved war actually is. And when they needed to rally the troops, they had to say, “Hold on, we can’t be talking about peace anymore. We have to celebrate soldiers’ willingness to kill and die for empire.” And that’s why they changed the name from our misses day to Veterans Day. Our mistakes day was a day that celebrated peace. A Veterans Day is the day that celebrates war. And I think the name changed at the Department of Defense, although I do think it is more honest based on what the US military has been used for over the centuries. The US rarely does anything in defense of democracy or freedom. They do it, so they fight so rich people can become richer. So it does seem a little bit more honest.

Marc Steiner:

And it seems to me, given what you just said and the changing the name to Department of War and launching us into a war which we will have a real difficulty controlling and containing given the size of the country and what’s going on around the world as well. So I think that if they get through with this, this is just the beginning of what we can face. As someone who’s been active in veterans groups who oppose these insane wars that we perpetrate across the globe, what do you think the actions are that people have to take on the ground to understand what we face? I mean, it’s like people have no idea the dangers we’re facing in this battle with Iran. This could be a real turning point.

Rory Fanning:

No, agreed. I think Vietnam is our closest example of how you can push back against empire. You have to incorporate a whole number of things in order to do that. I think you have to have massive protests. I think you have to have extreme discontent on the part of soldiers. And I also think you have to know how to withhold your labor. I think we need to start building up the labor movement quite a bit in the United States because ultimately we are going to see business as usual until we challenge the ruling class as pocketbooks. And so protests, withholding labor, and then general discontent amongst soldiers, I think are the three most important things attending this.

Marc Steiner:

Let me take both those points for a moment and start with the soldiers, the men and women who are in service now and in the Armed Services. You did two tours, you wrote magnificently about it in your book, but it took even you a while to get to a place where you saw something was wrong.

Rory Fanning:

Yeah. I mean, my understanding was I didn’t really have a worldview when I signed up for the military after nine eleven in spite of having graduated college with the great books major from Notre Dame. I didn’t understand how the world worked.

And when I got over there, the situation was nothing like what you see in the movies or on video games. Blackhawk Down had just come out, which was a movie about the operations in Somalia under Clinton. And I was expecting similar to looking after the guy to your left and right, the US is on the side of good. And when I landed in Afghanistan, I immediately realized that we were a bully. We had the world’s most sophisticated army, the most expensive army, and we were terrorizing some of the poorest people on the planet for a country that didn’t even hold Osama bin Laden at the time. So what I had grown up thinking the military was, an institution that fought for freedom and democracy clearly was the opposite after I started seeing what we were doing on the ground in Afghanistan. We were making the world a more dangerous place by what we were doing there.

And the statistics bear that out. I think between 1980 and 2001, there were about 200 suicide bombs around the world with only 10% aimed at the US or US interest. Between 2001 and 2012, there were 2,200 suicide bombs around the world with 90% aimed at the US and US interest. And this was Professor Pape at the University of Chicago as a terrorism experts statistics. So the US is really good at making the world a more dangerous place for not only the people who are being targeted by the US, but also American citizens.

Marc Steiner:

So I’m curious in the work you’re doing as somebody who has written about this and really reflected on the life as a soldier in combat, what it’s meant for the larger political picture, how do you think that plays out in today’s military?

Rory Fanning:

Yes. The US military, they prey on those with the least amount of options after graduation. Chicago has one of the highest numbers of junior reserve officer training program, JROTC candidates in the country. And they go after kids on the South and West sides of Chicago because they know they have the least amount of options after graduation. So many people sign up for the military to get free education, free healthcare, and maybe set out a course for their life when their life may have not had a lot of options before they signed up for the military. So a lot of people find themselves in a situation like, “I just wanted to sign up so I could get healthcare and free education.” But there are consequences for that. And when I go to high schools and colleges and just talk about my experience and encourage these young people to think critically before they sign up for the military, because these recruiters don’t tell them nearly the whole story.

And if you’re asking someone to kill and die for a cause, they should know what they’re getting into. And so I think yes, you may have free education, you may have free healthcare, but if you can’t leave your basement because of what you did, I mean, we just killed 160 girls in Iran on Saturday, and every American soldier who participated in that mission is complicit in that. And take it from someone who knows, this kind of stuff will haunt you for the rest of your life. And I think we need to be able to communicate that stuff to these soldiers, and they’re not making the world a safer place. They’re making it a more dangerous place, and there’s no nobility in attacking Iran right now, and I think we all need to communicate that to them. Veterans for Peace has a brilliant billboard campaign. We’re putting up refuse illegal order billboards, giant, giant billboards outside of military bases across the country.

There’s one on Great Lakes, Naval Airbase outside of Chicago. I was just at that, and they’re all over the country. And so we’re just encouraging soldiers to, number one, realize that there is a way out, and number two, you need to not follow orders that are illegal. And I would also add immoral too.

Marc Steiner:

So six military folks were killed. And I wonder, in your experience and with the people you know, your contacts inside the world of military, how do you think that most service people are thinking about this war in this moment, given this we’re not at the tip of the iceberg, we’re just six killed, but that’s just the beginning.

Rory Fanning:

Yes. The US military is very good at teaching soldiers how to be apolitical, to not think critically about the larger politics behind missions. The military is about the guy or woman to your left or right, and politics are not always a part of the equation when it comes to these missions, or at least that’s what the military chain of command discourages amongst the rank and file. And so I think right now these soldiers are following their orders. I’m sure many of them feel overwhelmed and stunned by the position they now find themselves in. I think they’re blocking out the future and trying to live in a moment by moment basis because that’s all they can really control at this point. I belong to a group called Veterans for Peace, also affiliated with About Face, and we are an anti-war veterans organization that encourages critical thought.

I’ve seen people who’ve killed for causes they don’t understand. I’ve seen people not be able to leave their basement after returning home from combat. And so I think we’re just trying to encourage soldiers to think extremely critically, extremely critically about what they’re doing and the long-term consequences of following orders. And right now, I think we can all say that these are criminal orders that they’re being told to follow.

Marc Steiner:

I’d like to explore that a little deeper. Organizations like yours, the ones that are veterans coming back fighting for peace. It makes me think of the 50 years ago in the founding of VVAW, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and all the activists that came back from Nam that ended up being anti-war activists and how that kind of did affect the inside of the military. It affected this country in ways that just people, protests in the world did not. So talk about that in terms of the context of where we are now and how do you think that plays out?

Rory Fanning:

Well, I think if we’re calling on soldiers to lay their weapons down and resist, I think we also have to make sure that they know that they have a safe place to land should they do that.

Marc Steiner:

What does that mean?

Rory Fanning:

Safe place to land when they basically say, “I’m not going to fight anymore and I’m willing to take whatever…” I mean, quitting the military is not like quitting a normal job. It’s

Marc Steiner:

Not like

Rory Fanning:

Leaving a job at Pizza Hut. You can go to jail and in certain situations, you can be executed. I mean, it’s putting it all on the table there. So it’s a very important decision. And so you have to make sure that soldiers who don’t believe in the mission, don’t want to go against their conscience and want to do the right thing, know that if they do decide to make that monumental choice to leave the military, that they know that they will be supported by organizations such as Veterans or Peace. Back in the Vietnam War, and I think they’ve been rejuvenated a bit during the Global War on Terror were GI coffee houses. And this is places where people could meet, get information on how to become a conscientious objector or a war resistor. And those resources that are out there, we just need to make sure soldiers, active duty soldiers know that they are.

Marc Steiner:

Talk a bit about your role in doing where you are with this war and what change that can make and how effective that can be.

Rory Fanning:

I mean, I just think these kinds of interviews, getting into schools, high schools, colleges, communicating some of this stuff, I think is really important. And also when 160 little girls between the ages of seven and 12 are killed by the US military, these soldiers need to be called out for that. People are used to just patting soldiers on the back and saying, thank you for your service. They’re not serving anybody at the moment, and they need to know that this is a very unpopular thing that I think one in four Americans believe in this war right now. And so I think making sure we’re communicating this to them, letting them know that if they are having second thoughts about what they’re doing, there are organizations that can support them. And I think just generally, we all need to start fighting for things like free healthcare and free education because that really undermines US imperialism.

That cuts out a huge incentive to sign up for the military if people don’t need to sign up through the military to get free education and free healthcare.

Marc Steiner:

Well, I would say the work you’re doing is really important. And what you just said a moment ago about the children who are being murdered in Iran and those kind of billboards and ideas being thrust out there for the American people to say no, to see the horror and the horrendous nature of what we’re doing, what’s being done in our name, I think is really important. And I just want to say, A, thank you for all the work you do. And I look forward to talking to you more about Worth Fighting For, which is your book, Rory Fanning. It’s just an amazing book. It’s really important because out of this book comes conversations that we can have about ending this insane war and ending the wars in total.

Rory Fanning:

Well, thank you so much, Mark. I really appreciate you having me on the show and I look forward to talking again.

Marc Steiner:

Me too. We’ll stay in touch.

Rory Fanning:

All right. Take care.

Marc Steiner:

Thank

Rory Fanning:

You.

Marc Steiner:

Thank you, Rory. Once again, I want to thank Rory Fanning for joining us today and for his book and all he’s done for peace and to expose the dangers of endless war. And thanks to Cameron Grandino for running the program today, our audio editor, Steven Frank, for working his magic, producer Rosette Sowali for making all work behind the scenes and everyone here through our news for making this show possible. Please, let me know what you thought about what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I’ll get right back to you. And once again, thank you to Rory Fanning for his work and for joining us here on The Real News today. So for the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.