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shel_tr 2009-09-15

agstreet: A nuanced response. Much there with which I agree: Israel needs to be reined-in, Diaspora Judaism's rightist tendencies need counter-balance, etc. But I disagree with your statement that "our behavior is the ultimate enabler, if not the source, of anti-Israel and anti-American sentiment". The extent, the ferocity, and the unbalanced nature of the attacks on Israel (esp. its very existence) are divorced from reality. Otherwise, this site would question the justification for North Korea, China, etc. Not all anti-Israel "shouting" is anti-semitism, but a large portion is. Nonetheless, that does not justify the unconscionable. BTW: UR mention of kids is interesting. And humbling.

agstreet 2009-09-15

...As you are, I am sure, both your children's most ardent critic and staunchest defender, I can only hope you are working equally hard to curb self destructive behavior in Israel. I have not given up on my children because they have been responsive to my guidance. If they did anything like what our countries do I would arrest them myself! The leadership in the USA and Israel no longer deserve a gentle hand in my view. As far as your comment about historical land rights, my concern is that this argument can be used by anyone to justify almost anything. There needs to be rule of law. Both sides need to accept and respect the U.N. resolutions on borders.

agstreet 2009-09-15

Shel_tr: I agree that Israel is not evil. Nor is any country. You are right to point out the sentiment brewing against Israel. Such comments were extremely rare not so long ago here in America. This sentiment is what I am railing against--not Israel. But countries do things that smell evil. When those things form a pattern then it reflects on the country and its allies in a profound way. The anti-Israel statements on this site are a tip-of-the-iceberg problem. The USA has a similar problem because of grave mistakes of its own on the world stage. We have to own up to the fact that our behavior is the ultimate enabler, if not the source, of anti-Israel and anti-American sentiment. I think it is counter productive when people get lost in the details trying to defend Israel and miss the larger pattern of behavior that the world interprets as Israel's racist laws and ultimate intentions to enlarging its borders and cleansing its population.

shel_tr 2009-09-11

Further research shows that Israel and the PA agreed to water supply requirements as part of the Oslo Agreements. Israel was allowed to pump from their side of the Mountain Aquifer, but was also obligated to supply prescribed amounts of water to the Palestinians. The Pal's would also pump prescribed amounts from that aquifer. The PA had the authority to enter into binding agreements on behalf of the Pal's. So, if both parties voluntarily agreed, Tarachansky's report is sensationalizing the situation. I understand that the Pal's may now need more, and so may want to re-negotiate. But that's a very different situation from what this report indicates...

shel_tr 2009-09-08

agstreet: Thx for taking the time/thought to respond. I can agree that the faults of "others" out there (such as Pakistan) do not absolve Israel. My point, though, is that so many (esp. on this website!) 1) seek to "get Israel" as if everything it does is unjustified, and 2) use Israel's transgressions as an excuse to suggest she has no right to exist. As context, Pal terrorism (Sbarro, Mike's Pizza, etc.) are horrible, barbaric. But they do not mean that a Pal state should never exist. Israel is not innocent. But neither is she "evil" (as some regularly suggest on this website). As usual, the "truth" is somewhere in between. BTW: Whereas theology has no part in justifying land habitation, history (“who used the land hundreds of years ago”) clearly does. If history played no part, then Pal’s themselves would have no claim to the land! But they do. And so do the Jews. I never said resolution would be easy… :-)

agstreet 2009-09-07

To be clear, by "questionable historical facts" I mean all of justifications for Israeli settlements, water use, etc. such as "promised by God", who used the land hundreds of years ago, and so on. Racism feeds on itself and both sides are guilty of stoking the flames. This article points out that Israel is far from the innocent victim that it claims to be as it lobbies our government for more of our tax dollars.

agstreet 2009-09-07

shel_tr - Pakistan is a bad example. The illegal modifications of weapons and ethnic cleansing are vastly different classes of crime. Most people get that. When both sides of the issue talk on and on about everything except the crux of the matter you only distract and confuse yourselves. Most people do not want to compare Jews to Hitler or excuse crimes by the state of Israel based upon historical facts that are as irrelevant as they are questionable. Noise and more noise. I will point to sunrise's post and let Jews outside Israel decide for themselves whether the bad press generated by Israel's activities matters. My sense is that it does, but that is just one guy's opinion.

shel_tr 2009-09-05

TyR: You are not wrong. There is much to overcome. My only disagreement is that I still want to be optimistic (or try to be). If the recent co-ordinated efforts to bring Abu Mazen to the fore in the WB bear fruit, it may be just the thing to start the logjam moving. As I say, I want to be optimistic.

sunrise 2009-09-05

encountered it undermined and devoured all the non-Jewish power of these States. It is foretold that the Snake has still to finish its work, strictly adhering to the designed plan, until the course which it has to run is closed by the return of its head to Zion and until, by this means, the Snake has completed its round of Europe and has encircled it - and until, by dint of enchaining Europe, it has encompassed the whole world…..”

sunrise 2009-09-05

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm#WHO Protocol III opens with a reference to the Symbolic Snake of Judaism. In his Epilogue to the 1905 Edition of the Protocols, Nilus gives the following interesting account of this symbol: "According to the records of secret Jewish Zionism, Solomon and other Jewish learned men already, in 929 B.C., thought out a scheme in theory for a peaceful conquest of the whole universe by Zion. As history developed, this scheme was worked out in detail and completed by men who were subsequently initiated in this question. These learned men decided by peaceful means to conquer the world for Zion with the slyness of the Symbolic Snake, whose head was to represent those who have been initiated into the plans of the Jewish administration, and the body of the Snake to represent the Jewish people - the administration was always kept secret, EVEN FROM THE JEWISH NATION ITSELF. As this Snake penetrated into the hearts of the nations which it encounte

TyR. 2009-09-05

The term negotiation would imply that both sides have some leverage against each other to allow for fair dialogue in the pursuit of peace. In this situation the Palestinian's only leverage is international empathy, so to imply the Palestinian have a fair chance of negotiating a viable peace agreement is somewhat of a hyperbole itself; but that is an illusion that is peddled in order to demonize an impoverished people and blaming their greed and "dream" as obstacles in negotiations. The only two main obstacles to negotiation other then lack of political leverage, are the Israeli leadership who lack any real commitment to the process, and Hamas who only serve as a dividing force and has shown themselves to be more detrimental then helpful to the Palestinians.

shel_tr 2009-09-04

Senior Citizen: UR position only hinders, it does not help, the Palestinians. The PA constantly receives huge amounts of financial and logistical support from the U.S., the U.N., the E.U., Arabia, etc. Nobody (other than Iran) is interested in supplying them with military hardware. Arab nations are specifically unified in their OPPOSITION to militarising the Pal's (BTW: There IS a word limit here, so I will use contractions. Call them "Issy's", I don't care. Separate "form" from "function" / content!). Hummus has squandered so much of their resource base, sacrificing all on the altar of "resistance". Their cynical strategy of focusing on "getting Israel", instead of improving Pals' living conditions, has cost Pal lives and destroyed their hope for the future. If you want to stay with the Gazan Pal’s in the stone ages, be my guest! Neither I, nor the rest of the world, will waste any time on such foolishness. In the meantime, WB Pal’s make steady progress towards sovereign

SeniorCitizen 2009-09-03

Shel-tr says: "The way to handle all those issues is between two states. Israeli-Palestinian . . . ." So now Palestine is a state, is it? Then shouldn't the US give them as many F-16s as Israel has been given? The same helicopters that the IDF used to murder women and children in Gaza? Get Israel and Palestine on an equal footing militarily so real negotiations can take place, instead of the current situation where Israel decrees and Palestine is forced to kneel before Israel's military power. And stop calling them Pals, Izzy.

shel_tr 2009-09-01

SeniorCitizen (cont'd): Until then, I hope Israel and the PA “stay the course”: Israel continues relaxing control as the PA continues taking responsibility for its actions. Plenty of blame on both parties. To get a peace agreement (essentially, a political objective) both sides will have to sacrifice some portion of their legal rights. For ex., Truth And Reconciliation allows for expression of those with legal grievances, but the perpetrator doesn't necessarily receive the usual legal penalties. Some things have got to "give" in order to achieve something more important (peace).

shel_tr 2009-09-01

SeniorCitizen: You're a newcomer to the disussion. Welcome aboard! But the onus is on U to review the prior discussions. Water is just one issue. The way to handle all those issues is between two states. Israeli-Palestinian relations will determine their own equilibrium, just as between Israel-Jordan / Israel-Egypt / Israel, etc. Even in a worst-case scenario (e.g. relations between Israel and Lebanon or Syria), there are problems, but they also achieve an equilibrium of their own. Initially, I’m sure that a Pal state would often get shafted (by Arab states no less than by Israel!). Such is the usual for a young, weak state -- Israel went through that, all states do. But then Pal’s a) have freedom to make choices, and b) must be a responsible state. I’m hopeful that WB isn’t too far from this. At that point, Gaza’s choices (and responsibilities) will be clear to all. Until then, I hope Israel and the PA “stay the course”: Israel continues relaxing control as the PA continues taking re

SeniorCitizen 2009-08-31

"You too easily dismiss the improvements in Pals' day-to-day lives," says shel_tr. So the substandard 90 liters of water per day Israel allows Palestinians is an improvement over their previous ration of even less -- that's what shel_tr is saying. And he refuses to speak of the daily indignities, much less the brutalities, inflicted by the IDF on Palestinians. Hello, Bibi Netanyahu. I knew it was you.

shel_tr 2009-08-31

SeniorCitizen: You too easily dismiss the improvements in Pals' day-to-day lives. Easy for you to do from your position of privilege. But this is (according to posts on this website) the goal of Pal's: To improve their lives. They're now seeing the beginning of such improvements. Britain and the IRA were able to make peace. Just like the Israeli/Palestinian issue, there were plenty of needless deaths on both sides. Peace required negotiation. By definition, in a negotiation you don't achieve 100% of your goals. To make real-life progress, you need to distinguish between what you need vs. what you can live with. If the Pal’s want further improvements, that can happen, but they need to define for themselves the areas of potential compromise. On the other hand, if they want to hold-out for the sake of dreams, they can continue to spite their nose for their face. That route hasn’t exactly worked out for them. The world can be a harsh place. It has little time (or resources) to spare fo

SeniorCitizen 2009-08-31

(continued) It is due our sense of justice and fair play.

SeniorCitizen 2009-08-31

The thrust of this article is that Israelis get 284 liters of water per day and Palestinians get 90, even though 130 plus is considered to be minimum daily requirements. Yet we've been told twice by shel_tr that things are improving drastically. Does that mean that previously Palestinians were denied even more water than currently? What was their ration per day in the past: 80 liters? 70 liters? 50 liters? And why is it if things are so much better now than before that Palestinian homes are still being bulldozed, their orchards still being torched, their abuser and murderers still going unpunished? Oh, yes, there's a going Italian restaurant in the West Bank that wasn't there before. Big deal. Israel remains in defiance of hundreds of UN resolutions and it stands today and for the past 40 years the central threat to peace in that region. If the majority of Real News readers who comment on articles such as this appear to be ill disposed to Israel, it is not due to bias. It is

shel_tr 2009-08-31

agstreet: You've cut me to the quick! No matter, I'll deal. ;-) Of note, though, is that your post further reveals just how ingrained the biases are among the posters of this website, even though, I'm sure, you regard yourselves as “liberal”. I.E. Why should Israel's actions "harm all Jews"? When Pakistan (an explicitly Muslim state) modifies defensive weapons for offensive purposes, or when their intelligence (ISI) is tied to terrorism in India, etc., everybody realizes that it's no reflection on Muslims in general. I repeat: Unless it has a direct bearing on the discussion, leave religion OUT.

agstreet 2009-08-31

The only point here that isn't mindless noise is that Israel is acting in a way that will harm all Jews and has soured the one resource that Israel really depends upon--American public opinion.

shel_tr 2009-08-31

BTW, ObservationPost: What would my religion have to do with anything...?? Just stick to the facts, would ya! And while UR at it, no hyperbole is required. I.E. References to Hitler / Nazi's are unnecessary. They just reveals the emptiness of your argument. I haven't once referred to Hummus' stifling, fascist tendencies on their own populace. But if you really cared about Pal's, you'd need to reconcile to that fact. Just a couple more examples of the hypocrisy of the "let's get Israel" crowd...

shel_tr 2009-08-31

And, once again, the posters at this website display a complete inability to respond with facts and rational arguments. Instead, my (completely fact-filled!) post is called a “rant”. Too funny! Clearly, it’s “if U can’t beat ‘em, smear ‘em!” Of course, this is no reflection on me, or my argument. It’s just frustrating. It’s also of a piece with the poetry to which O.P. referred. That was written years ago (Laor = 2002, Finkelstein = 2005). As I already mentioned, the situation has changed drastically (see below). Moreover, anybody claiming that the fundamental problem is the mere existence of Israel just fails to grasp the reality that Israel ain’t goin’ away! Hate-filled racists who dream of Israel’s disappearance simply have no relevance. However, seekers of Pal sovereignty, and of peace, do have hope. Progress (by the PA and Israel) in WB is proof of that.

ObservationPost 2009-08-30

Lest the casual reader takes shel_tr's rant for a responsible expression of enlightened thought among Jews in Israel or elsewhere, let me call your attention to Normal G. Finkelstein's excellent book, Beyond Chutzpah. Also the various writings of the Israeli poet and author, Yitzhak Laor, who has also compared the IDF's brutality with those of Nazi Germany, e.g. "Israel may not have a colonial past but we do have our memory of evil. Does this explain why Israeli soldiers stamped ID numbers on Palestinian arms? Or why the most recent Holocaust Day drew a ridiculous comparison between those of us in the besieged Warsaw Ghetto and those of us surrounding the besieged Jenin refugee camp?" (http://www.danpal.dk/index.php?doc=704) Likewise, an Israeli citizens' organization stating its belief "that Israel`s atrocities will not cease without a massive intervention by the international community." (http://www.pacbi.org/etemplate.php?id=917)

JanT 2009-08-30

ObservationPost: Sudetenland

shel_tr 2009-08-27

To ObservationPost (cont'd): But UR response lays bare that UR objective is neither Pal self-sovereignty nor peace. Instead, UR objective is simply to "get Israel". Responses such as the one you gave are NOT part of "the solution". It's an example of the problem. Indisputably, Israel has eased its checkpoints (http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10336042.html) and the situation in Ramallah has drastically improved (http://www.thestar.com/article/451550 and http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=114891277001). While UV been pre-occupied with UR hate-filled dreams, the Pal's and Israelis have improved the situation on the ground. As per my original post, I welcome this progress and I demand more, both from the Israeli gov't and the PA (not to mention Arabia in general!). "...stoop to his level..."?? Quite the contrary. U need to raise the bar on UR critical thought. Simplistic hate and rhetoric doesn't cut it.

shel_tr 2009-08-27

ObservationPost: Oops! UR hypocrisy is showing! U just chided UNRealNews for its inability to deal honestly with your post simply because it mentioned Hitler. Now U turn around and inject a reference to Nazism where it has no relevance! What is it with the inability, on the part of posters to this site, to simply deal with the facts raised by counter opinions? This is UR "analysis" O.P.?? Go directly to hyperbole, do not stop at GO? I was simply refering to historical facts, but alright, let's analyze UR statements on their merit (such as it is). If the denial of national aspirations is simply due to maniacal hatred, then U better tell the Babylonians (Iraqis), Turks, Syrians, etc., since THEY, not Israel, have repressed the Kurds for generations and continue to do so up to the present day. Similarly, historically the Pal's were repressed by Egypt and then by Transjordan. Egypt still does (U R aware, aren’t U, that Egypt retains a seal on its border with its Gazan "brothers"?).

ObservationPost 2009-08-27

shel_tr says: States that are not strong get swept-up and/or disappear (e.g. Pal's, Kurds, etc.). Echos of Adolph Hitler. The Master Race marching into Austria, the "Sudenland" of Czechoslovakia, then Poland, on and on. And stel_tr speaks of "progress" in the WB being glacially slow. What progress, the complete absorption of the West Bank by Israel and the eviction of ALL Palestinians from their homes? Israeli theft of Palestinian water is just another example of Israel "lording it over the Pals" as shel_tr so euphemistically puts it. (Or should I stoop to his level and call Israelis "Izzies"?) American policy in the mid-East should not be determined by people like stel-tr who are saying in effect: Israel right or wrong, my country. MY country is the USA, and its policy should be right. Right in the case of Palestine would be forcing Israel to get out of the West Bank completely and end 40 years or more of its persecution of Palestinians.

shel_tr 2009-08-26

To ObservationPost (cont'd): For ex., Israelis are rightfully proud of their gut-wrenching withdrawal from Gaza and the very recent virtual elimination of IDF checkpoints in the WB. The WB is now experiencing somewhat of a renaissance. It is glacially slow, but progress IS being made and most Israelis want more. However, if an unpleasant action is required for self-preservation, I'll stand by Israel.

shel_tr 2009-08-26

ObservationPost: Your comment still needs further refinement. E.G. "...pity that Hitler didn't run the gas ovens 24/7". I understand that you're not condoning it, but it's still a clearly anti-semitic statement. Regardless of one's feelings regarding Israel, Jews (overall) are a separate issue. More to the point, wishing religious genocide is simply beyond the pale. Of course, there are plenty of anti-semites. But their existence has no relevance to policy decisions. Having ruled them out, I still need to deal with your point that many historical Israel-admirers are now "anti-Israel" (in some fashion). Israel's general approach, and I agree with it, is: "Sure, we want (need?) the world to understand our POV. However, we will NOT make policy decisions to curry favour". Israel exists in a tough corner of the world. States that are not strong get swept-up and/or disappear (e.g. Pal's, Kurds, etc.). I, and most Israelis, DO NOT want to lord over Pal’s. For ex., Israelis are rig