April 26, 2009

No proof torture stopped terror attacks

CIA Inspector General documents say no evidence "enhanced interrogation" stopped an attack


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Bio

Mark Seibel oversees the McClathy Washington Bureau's Web site, a position he assumed in 2008. He joined the bureau in 2003 as the editor in charge of international and national security coverage from The Miami Herald, where he directed two Pulitzer Prize-winning reporting efforts, expanded the reach of the paper's International Edition, and oversaw the paper's independent review of ballots from the 2000 presidential election. He began his career at The Dallas Morning News in 1975 after graduation from Southern Methodist University. He covered Mexico and Central America as the Mexico City bureau chief of the Dallas Times Herald, and worked as an editor and reporter for the San Jose Mercury News and the Los Angeles Times before joining The Herald as foreign editor in 1984. In 1987, The Herald international staff received the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting for its coverage of the Iran-Contra affair. Seibel was appointed a Nieman Foundation Fellow at Harvard University during the 1991-92 academic year. He returned to The Herald afterward as director of international operations, where he directed both news and business operations of the paper's International Edition and edited a monthly publication devoted to the Cuban economy. He subsequently served as assistant managing editor for Page 1 and assistant managing editor for state and local news, where he directed the coverage of the Elian Gonzalez immigration saga that won the Pulitzer Prize for Breaking News in 2000. In 2001, he was named The Herald's managing editor for news. He was assigned to Knight Ridder's Washington Bureau to coordinate reporters during both the Gulf War in 1991 and the March 2003 invasion of Iraq before moving to the bureau full-time later that year. He serves on the board of advisers to the Department of Journalism at SMU in Dallas.

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beryl k gullsgate 2009-04-27

A pragmatic test where the means may justify the end: How many acts of torture - in this case, waterboarding - would be necessary if acted upon the person of Dick Cheney, in order to extract an admission, that "Waterboarding is an ineffective means of extracting truth"; in this case from the man himself, Dick Cheney? Would such a confession under extreme duress be acceptable? beryl k gullsgate

Transcript

PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay. We're coming to you from the McClatchy offices in Washington, DC. Pressure's mounting on President Obama to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate whether charges should be laid against those responsible for waterboarding. A vigorous defense has been waged by two of those people. Vice President Dick Cheney and Karl Rove have made frequent appearances on TV. Here's what they've been saying.

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: They put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn't put out the memos that show the success of the effort. But I know specifically of reports that I read and I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country.

KARL ROVE, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: These are available on the Internet. Anybody can get them. They're well worth reading. And if you do read them, you'll be reassured about what your government was doing, but maybe a little concerned that they weren't doing enough. And the description of the techniques will cause Americans to say, "Is this torture?"

JAY: So that's the question, not was it illegal. But according to Cheney and Rove, the question is they were effective [sic]. So, joining us now to discuss whether or not there's evidence of this is Mark Seibel. He's the managing editor of McClatchyDC.com. Thanks for joining us, Mark.

MARK SEIBEL, MANAGING EDITOR, MCCLATCHY ONLINE: Thank you.

JAY: Now just people should know that this is the way you normally dress, and it's very formal around here. Okay. You're on your way to a charity ball.

SEIBEL: That's right.

JAY: Alright. So the last couple of days, you've been pouring over the memoranda that were revealed, disclosed by the Obama administration, where the waterboarding was authorized. What have you found so far?

SEIBEL: Well, one of the things that was interesting to me about the memo was that 34 times, two of the memos cite an inspector general's report from 2004—CIA inspector general—that has not previously been publicized. And one of the findings of that inspector general's report, according to these memoranda, is that there was no conclusive evidence that any of the information that was obtained from waterboarding or harsh interrogation tactics actually led to the prevention or stopping of a terrorist attack. And it's pretty straightforward, and I thought that was unusual.

JAY: So Cheney and Rove talking about show all the memoranda, you'll see how effective it really was, in fact, it is there to be seen, to some extent, and you're saying there's nothing there to be seen.

SEIBEL: I think if they release all the memoranda, there will certainly be memoranda (because there were some written after this inspector general's report) to say, well, yes, it was effective. But the inspector general's report, which was the independent assessment of the—the CIA's own independent assessment of the program, found that there was no conclusive evidence.

JAY: That anything was really achieved by torture.

SEIBEL: That anything was stopped. And, you know, it's actually, as you read the documents, the ones that were released last week, you see that even though they're trying to be supportive of the harsh interrogation tactics, that in fact they're citing 34 times a report that basically said—was highly critical of the program.

JAY: What else did you learn from going over the documents?

SEIBEL: Well, you learn that in spite of the discussion of all the medical care and concern that was taken in this, that in fact during the period that the harsh interrogation procedures, the waterboarding, took place, there were no medical people that had been consulted either on the risk or the effectiveness of the interrogation. We learn with the first prisoner, Abu Zubaydah, that his interrogators on the ground wanted to stop waterboarding him. They thought he was being compliant and that he'd told them everything he knew. But CIA headquarters insisted that the waterboarding continue, and they even sent people down from headquarters to watch the last waterboarding session, at which point they too concluded, "Oh, he's told us everything he knows." So we learn that. We learned that the Bush administration's reliance on the military training program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape was a very poor predictor of the risks of waterboarding. When waterboarding became public the Bush administration said, "Well, it's just something we've been—. It's no big deal. It's something we even do on our own soldiers as training." But the inspector general said there's no comparison. In fact, you have people who know they're being trained for a military thing who are waterboarded in sort of a gentle way, and even that was intolerable. And all the services, except the Navy, have stopped doing it because it's such a physically demanding thing that they're putting on their troops. So we learn that the CIA inspector general felt that was a very poor way to decide what the risk was. And, in fact, as you read the memos, you discover that as they went along they discovered there was more and more risk. After the memos, after the report was released, the CIA's Office of Medical Services got involved in assessing risk in waterboarding, and it is significant that there was no more waterboarding after that. There was even a prisoner captured; waterboarding was considered; they believed he had been a go-between between Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan or Pakistan and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian terrorist who at that time was active in Iraq. But they assessed him and said, "Well, he's obese, he complains of chest pressure. We think waterboarding and would not produce enough information that it's worth doing it, because it might kill him." And those kinds of things I don't think have been very well publicized, you know, in terms of the really very graphic and yet very sterile descriptions that we have of waterboarding.

JAY: So why shouldn't this inspector general's report itself be now fully made public?

SEIBEL: Well, I don't know whether they will. The CIA says there's no plan to make it public. The ACLU, which has sued to get the report and actually got a report of it in May 2008, that version, which we posted on our website, is basically a bunch of heavy black lines. Occasionally you run across the word "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the 9/11 conspirator," just as isolated words, and then the notation that "This section, page 43 to 86, is not being released." And so, really, nothing has come out on this report. And I think if in fact just the memos were so controversial, I think releasing the report, which some people describe as being the size of two telephone books, will be really, really controversial. So I'm not expecting it unless a judge orders it.

JAY: And one would think Americans do have a right to know whether or not this was effective or not. The whole Cheney-Rove-Bush defense essentially has been that they really did get good information.

SEIBEL: I think if you're going to release some memos on effectiveness, you have to release all memos on effectiveness, so that you really have something to judge from. You know, I am sure that this Senate Intelligence Committee, as it goes through its investigation, which its chairwoman, Dianne Feinstein, has promised, that I'm sure they will review all of these memos and we will eventually get some judgment on the effectiveness.

JAY: Thanks very much, Mark. Thank you very much for joining us on The Real News Network.

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Please note that TRNN transcripts are typed from a recording of the program; The Real News Network cannot guarantee their complete accuracy.

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